Saturday, June 02, 2007

Quid pro quo

It is pretty much the only Latin phrase I know and strikes me as the most plausible reason that Theo shelled out $70M over 5 for this stiff in right field. There had to have been a deal brokered by Boras that signing JD equals signing Dice-K. I don't find myself in agreement much with Bob Ryan but boy did he tag this one on that conference call with Theo before the deal was finalized. How bad have things gotten? Well, the vast majority of fans were most concerned about Drew's ability to stay on the field when this deal was announced and yet last night most were probably pumped to have him out of the game with a sore hammy. I would love to see him go on the DL right now because Hinske looks like an upgrade. At the very least can we get him out of the 5-hole already? Manny is heating up like crazy right now but he isn't going to get any pitches with Nancy batting behind him. I thought at the beginning of the season that Jacoby Ellsbury very well might be brought up in the 2nd half to take over for Coco in center field but now I'm wondering if we might need him to replace Drew. Theo has made a lot of questionable moves but none look worse right now than JD. For my sanity please tell me there was a Quid pro quo.


RedFish said...

First of all, JD Drew is not a 'stiff'- a quick glance at his career numbers will prove this- a solid .280-.300 hitter with some power, a good OBP, a clutch-guy, and descent fielding. Yeah, injuries have taken their toll on him this year- have you ever tried to do anything with a nagging, strained hammie- but a stiff this does not make him. He also needs a few minutes at least to familiarize himself with a whole new set of pitchers as a new member of the American League. This can take time. And lastly, ALL baseball players go through a slump at some time. Yeah, alot of money was thrown his way, but the Red Sox have been throwing around the big bucks for years now. Wait until at least August, or when he is fully healthy, before you make this judgement. With such a big lead right now, it makes me wonder- Cant some (and I reiterate SOME) of you Sox fans be happy with anything? Or does the thought of the Yankees sneaking up on you scare you too much to remain calm so early in the season to where you need to"desperately nit-pick".

Junior Gong said...

You might be the only guy on the planet that associates clutch and JD Drew. He is a stiff for $70M over 5 years. Speaking of his career numbers his 162 game averages are .283/26/85 compared to the guy he replaced (Trot) whose career 162 averages are .278/21/86. That is very close to a wash yet it is costing the Sox 5 times as much as Nixon.

I have no fear of the Yankees as the division race is over. I am also happy with the Sox but that doesn't mean I will not point out the biggest free agent fraud signing of this past offseason.

RedFish said...

All Im saying is to wait until at least the All Star game to call a player a stiff, especially an injured one. Is he overpayed? Of course - he makes the same salary as Vlad Guerrero, and is certainly less productive. But he's not a stiff. He just has a better agent.

And by the way, his career average with RISP is nearly .300, with an OPS of .913. Furthermore, with men on base and 2 outs, Drews numbers are .274 avg and .922 OPS. These numbers are incredibly similar to those of David Ortiz. I, as well as most of the people on this planet, would call that clutch.

And lastly, the Blue Jays signing Vernon Wells for 7 years at 126 mill. was the biggest fraud signing of the off-season. He's hitting .260 this year.

Junior Gong said...

Players earn a clutch label for their performances in the postseason. In 27 playoff games Drew is batting .233 with 6 RBIs. Favorably comparing him to Papi in a conversation about clutch is laughable.

RedFish said...

Im just reading the numbers. Clutch is clutch, be it the playoffs or the regular season. I cant find a definition anywhere that states a clutch hit as specifically being a post-season hit.

This is a typical definition from
A clutch hitter is a baseball player with a knack for coming up with the "big" hit. The big hit is typically a game-deciding hit, sometimes a home run, often coming with two outs. Being known as a clutch hitter is a position of high honor and responsibility, as the clutch hitter is recognized as the "go-to guy" for the team, and his exploits in pressure situations are celebrated by both fans and players alike.

This is from ESPN:

Best Career Clutch Ratings Since 1972

1. Mark Grace
2. Toby Harrah
3. Jason Kendall
4. Kent Hrbek
5. Matt Lawton
6. Darrell Evans
7. Scott Fletcher
8. Jeromy Burnitz
9. Kirby Puckett
10. Harold Baines
11. Tony Gwynn
12. Dante Bichette
13. Bruce Bochte
14. Jose Vidro

Now, some of these guys never even went to the playoffs. #1 Mark Grace was a Cub with a rep as a clutch hitter. Certainly no post-season hits for him, at least until he became a D-Back- but his reputation as clutch was already there. Harrah, Kendall, and on and on- great clutch hitters with no playoff exp.
How about this blurb, also from ESPN, regarding Big Papi:
"But it was the 2005 regular season that cemented Ortiz's reputation (as a clutch hitter), when he totaled 148 RBI and hit .352 with runners in scoring position. Perhaps most impressive, he blasted twenty home runs that either tied the game or put the Red Sox ahead."
Note that it says, 'regular season'.

I love Big Papi as much as anyone. He should be a world ambassador for the game of baseball. And I am most certainly not trying to diminish his accomplishments or his legendary status. Heck- this debate isnt even about Big Papi. But based on the numbers and definition of a clutch hitter, we would be better off with Bruce Bochte or Mark Lawton, or maybe even JD Drew at the plate in an important situation. Yes, this sounds laughable, but the numbers dont lie.

TheRooster said...
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TheRooster said...

The only place JD Drew has been more clutch than David Ortiz is at the negotiating table. Drew is arguably the most overrated player in the HISTORY of baseball. In his nine year career, he has one -- one! -- 100 RBI season and has broken 75 RBI one other time. That's pathetic for a corner outfielder. He has one thing to thank for this contract: the fact that he's white. If he were black or hispanic, he would've been dismissed as a lazy underachiever years ago. His contract will go down as one of the worst free agents signings ever.

RedFish said...

Did you look at the numbers, Rooster? Ill bet not. I know that its difficult to accept, because we all love Papi, but again, the numbers dont lie. Look them up yourselves, realize the truth, and stop sounding like homers. Do you think that Brooks Robinson fans like to hear that Mike Lowell (as of last year) has the best fielding pct. for 3d basemen, EVER? Probably not, but thats the harsh reality of statistics. Really. And lets not bring race into this. I mean, c'mon....

RedFish said...

Once and for all, here are the numbers Im throwing out there:
Using career averages-

Drew: .291 Bat. Avg.
Papi: .296
Drew: .913 OPS
Papi: .898

Men on base w/ 2 outs:
Drew: .274 Bat. avg.
Papi: .275
Drew: .922 OPS
Papi: .905

As a pinch hitter:
Drew: .253 Bat. Avg.
Papi: .151
Drew: .825 OPS
Papi: .538

RISP w/2 outs:
Drew:122 RBI/363 AB
Papi:210 RBI/483 AB

Pretty similar, huh, guys? Now, this year, as a RedSox, Drew might not have proven himself as a clutch player yet, however, his career numbers give him the right to be considered clutch, and not a stiff, which was my original beef.
There is no disputing this based on the stats.

Junior Gong said...

You can go to any dictionary site you want for a definition of clutch but it is sort of like porn. No need to define it because you know it when you see it.

Reputations are made in the playoffs and as you say numbers don't 27 playoff games Drew is batting .233 with 6 RBIs. I refuse to label someone with those types of playoff numbers clutch.

TheRooster said...
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TheRooster said...
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TheRooster said...

This is laughable ... In a 1008 games, Drew has knocked in or scored 1159 runs. In 1095 games, Ortiz has knocked in or scored 1466 runs. That's more than 20% more -- even with Ortiz "lost" seasons in Minnesota included ... Ulimately, tho, here's the best litmus test for JD Drew: tell me that clutch JD Drew moment that you will tell your grandchildren about one day? Surely, if he's a clutch as Papi you can come up with a few moments where his play stole the headlines in MLB for even one day ... Time and again, Drew has done exactly what he's done to the Sox -- crushed the budget and limped out of the lineup. Let's repeat again: never an All-Star, never a Gold Glove, one 100 RBI season, one other above 75 -- and not a single defining play in his career. Btw, Mr. Clutch is now on his way to 55 RBIs sitting behind one of the most potent 1-2 punches in MLB history.

RedFish said...

Alright, guys, this is it for me- its getting tiring trying to get you guys to accept the numbers and stats as reality. Junior, if you want to start inventing your own definitions, contrary to what most everyone else in the baseball world seems to agree on, based on "knowing it when you see it", than so be it. Take it up with a reporter from your own city who might understand the definition of clutch.


How about that headline- and hey, not a playoff in sight.

Or this guy:
redsox stat guy

An .892 OPS with runners on in close and late situations sounds like clutch to me.

And yeah, I know that Drew has been a disappointment this year for the Sox, at least so far, but his career stats indicate that he can be very clutch, and is truly not a stiff. (Stiffs don’t receive more MVP votes than Roger Clemens in 2004 when the Rocket went 18-4, 2.98 era. , like JD did)
And.... his numbers in these clutch categories are comparable to Big Papi- deal with it.

Also, Rooster, we are not talking about "special moments" here- we are talking about stats- cold, hard, long-term, career stats. Show those to your Grandkids and school them, proper.
We are also not talking about RBIs, Gold Gloves, or AllStar games, we are talking about clutch situation hitting stats, which for some reason, you, also wont seem to accept as being truth.
Furthermore, when Drew is healthy, and helping the Sox hopefully stay ahead in the division and the playoffs with his clutch hitting, you will both wonder how you disputed both Theo, and the RedFish on this one.